‘Satisfaction’ and ‘Punishment’

By Rusty Tisdale

My friend, UpstateLutheran (as much friend as someone I’ve never really met and with whom I constantly bicker over theological/apologetical issues can be), has responded to a post I made at TheologyWeb concerning an article over at The Anastasis Dialogue, which was a quote of a post made by Fr. Al Kimel over at Beggars All . . . got that? :)

Now, I don’t necessarily agree with Fr. Al Kimel’s position, especially in light of some unclear language he uses. Until I’m comfortable with what he’s exactly saying, I can’t agree or disagree. One such example is his use of the term “existential consequences.” I’m not a philosopher or theologian, so without some clarification on Fr. Kimel’s part, I can only guess at what he means, and guessing isn’t good enough.

I did post the article over at TheologyWeb, but I did it merely for discussion sake. A discussion that UpstateLutheran has taken up in this post on his blog.

Now, before I begin addressing UpstateLutheran’s post directly, I’ll simply link to a wonderful article by Mark Shea on Indulgences and use some of his insights to help clarify terms.

Shea writes, ” Catholic theology has an incorrigible knack for obscuring marvelous insights in confusing terminology.” He couldn’t be more right. Shea goes on to say, “In reality, temporal punishment is just Catholicese for what Protestants call chastisement.”

Firstly, is he correct? In the section on indulgences, the Catechism states, “While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds . . . the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” The Bible often speaks of chastisement as God’s act of correcting what is ‘not correct’. For lack of more imagination, I would say God’s chastisement is the act of straightening what is crooked. Or, as Christ puts it in John 15:2, the unfruitful branches, though abiding in Him, will be purged so that they may be fruitful.

Shea continues, “In short, temporal punishment is part of how God redeems our sinful actions and turns their consequences into occasions of sanctity rather than damnation.” That is enough from Mr. Shea, as the remainder of his article deals more specifically with indulgences.

Now, on to our friend’s post:

In any case, what is being developed is what “temporal punishments” we have to make “satisfaction” for.

I do not believe that this is the gist of what Fr. Kimel was trying to say or indeed said. In the comment section at Beggars All, Fr. Kimel first quotes from Pope Benedict XVI (I think from a book when he was Cardinal Ratzinger):

Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where man is forced to undergo punishment in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inward necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God, and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.

So, here we have Fr. Kimel’s main point: Purgatory, or the suffering of ‘temporal punishments’ (whatever that may be – to be explored later) is the process by which we are transformed into that ’straightness’ God desires for each of us. I hope Fr. Kimel will forgive me if I butchered his actual sentiment.

After all, sin is (in its Eastern understanding especially), the ‘missing of the mark’. The incorrectness or unfruitfulness that necessitates purging by the Husbandman. Fr. Kimel states:

. . . . the key to understanding the Catholic teaching on “temporal punishments” is to realize that these punishments are not external acts of divine vengeance but are the existential consequences of our sins to ourselves and to others. Since God has willed that we suffer these consequences, they are and must be an expression of divine justice.

UpstateLutheran’s contention that ” what ‘temporal punishments’ we have to make ’satisfaction’ for” is in question is not exactly accurate. Fr. Kimel definitely believes that we have to ‘make satisfaction’, etc., as he clearly states:

Only when the Catholic doctrine of the atonement is understood can we begin to address the meaning of purgatorial purification as “punishment” for which “satisfaction” must be made. One thing is very clear: these two words (“punishment” and “satisfaction”) are being used analogically in this context. The words came into the tradition through the ancient penitential system and its assignment of penances. They are an attempt to explain the ancient intuition of the Church that post-mortem purification is necessary for most of the redeemed–hence the moral and spiritual imperative to pray for the faithful departed.

In other words, the question isn’t what temporal punishments we have to make satisfaction for – it’s what is temporal punishment? Fr. Kimel states that temporal punishment can be understood as “existential consequences of our sins,” and I believe that this is the phrase that throws UpstateLuthern (and me, to some degree) off Fr. Kimel’s message.

I think that Fr. Kimel’s meaning of “existential consequences” should be taken to be only those natural consequences arising from our sins. In other words, those things that happen as a result of our sins. Fr. Kimel states that these consequences “are not external acts of divine vengeance.” And here, I think is the key dispute. Fr. Kimel, of course, is exactly right and he’s following the Catechism in stating that the temporal punishments should not be understood as ‘divine vengeance’. But UpstateLutheran states:

Unfortunately, this seems to contradict Trent Session 14, section 8

So, what does Trent say about this issue? Before I get there, let me dwell a bit on what Fr. Kimel states so plainly: the words satisfaction and punishment are deeply rooted in the ancient penitential practices of the Church. This practice is well attested in Church history and the Fathers of the Church, and I won’t linger on it at this point – though I’m more than willing to come back to the topic later. I wanted to reiterate Fr. Kimel’s point in order to put Trent in perspective. The act of penance after confession of sin was and is considered a healing remedy. It is also directly related, in the mind of the Church, to the power of the Church to bind and loose sins. And, taken as a whole, the penitential system should be seen as one more way God chastises those whom he loves.

Trent states:

And it beseems the divine clemency, that sins be not in such wise pardoned us without any satisfaction, as that, taking occasion therefrom, thinking sins less grievous, we, offering as it were an insult and an outrage to the Holy Ghost, should fall into more grievous sins, treasuring up wrath against the Jay of wrath. For, doubtless, these satisfactory punishments {penances} greatly recall from sin, and check as it were with a bridle, and make penitents more cautious and watchful for the future; they are also remedies for the remains of sin, and, by acts of the opposite virtues, they remove the habits acquired by evil living.

We see in this passage the understanding of ‘punishments’ being the actual penances given to those who have sinned after baptism. Notice their purpose: to make straight the crooked, to correct the uncorrected. This is a perfect example of the chastising of God’s beloved. Now UpstateLuthern bolded the first portion of that passage. If I had my druthers, I’d emphasize the last portion. I’ll just leave it be for now.

But Upstate says:

Now, at first I thought “Hey!, they are saying that God forgives the sin and the punishment! Well, that is not so bad.” But then I re-read the passage and realized it says just the opposite, it does not say God forgives our sins and our punishment, it says that unless we make satisfaction, i.e. are punished, our sins are not forgiven.

In this particular instance yes. It is the clear teaching of the Church, both in Trent and in the new Catechism, that ’satisfaction’ (penance) must accompany the penitent’s confession. In fact, the Catechism quotes from Trent quite liberally in the paragraphs concerning satisfaction and temporal punishment. The emphasis, in the above quote, should not be the necessity of satisfaction, but of the purpose of satisfaction – to purge us, God’s branches.

UpstateLuthern continues:

Not only that, it seems to me that, contrary to Fr. Kimel’s claims about the “development” of this doctrine, the council clearly calls the “effects” punishments. i.e. they are not “accidents of sin” as it were, but punishments inflicted by God, or ourselves.

I’m not sure what UL’s point is, for it is obvious that Fr. Kimel never called temporal punishments “accidents of sin”. He plainly stated that use of the word ‘punishment’ is derived from the penitential practices of the Church and that the acts of satisfaction (penances) are tools of the Church used to conform us to the image of Christ. Neither the Catechism, nor any writing cited by Fr. Kimel called the temporal punishments due to sin “accidents of sin”. They are, as Fr. Kimel states plainly, consequences brought about by our own sin. The Council of Trent goes on to say,

But not therefore did they imagine that the sacrament of Penance is a tribunal of wrath or of punishments; even as no Catholic ever thought, by this kind of satisfactions on our parts, the efficacy of the merit and of the satisfaction of our Lord Jesus Christ is either obscured, or in any way lessened . . . .

In other words, this ‘punishment’ should be understood in exactly the way that Fr. Kimel (and the Catechism) explicitly states: not external acts of divine vengeance. So how should it be understood? Well, remember that the Bible teaches that the Husbandman purges the branches in Christ. Also, that God chastises those whom he loves. Corrects those who need correction. So, if we, as Mark Shea advocates, understand ‘temporal punishment’ as the purging, correcting, chastising of God’s people – I think we are closer to the truth of what both Trent and Fr. Kimel are getting at.

One interesting passage of Scripture which illustrates this concept in a unique way is II Timoth 2:19-21:

But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: The Lord knows those who are his, and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity. Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

This is from the ESV, and I love the translation, but the King James Version is even more explicit: If a man therefore purge himself. This penitential action by the believer, this act of ‘purging’ is encouraged to be performed by the believer. We can see here the Biblical and Catholic understanding of penitence – this undertaking of identifying ourselves with the sufferings of Christ. As Trent states so plainly:

But neither is this satisfaction, which we discharge for our sins, so our own, as not to be through Jesus Christ. For we who can do nothing of ourselves, as of ourselves, can do all things, He cooperating, who strengthens us.

UL spends the remainder of his post aghast that the Catholic “can have no confidence our sins are forgiven unless and until we have made enough “satisfaction” for our sins.” Of course, he neglects the most important part of the whole of Trent’s treatment of satisfaction, a part which is prominently quoted in the Catechism – that when we enter the very act of penitence, we unite ourselves with His suffering, His supreme satisfaction. That any acts of penance are done through his efficacy won on the Cross. Any purging, any correcting, any straightening is done because we have entered the realm of surrender to Him, He who strengthens us. I’m reminded of Hebrews 12. We are not told to just look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith; but that we should throw off the weights that weigh us down, and sin which ‘clings so closely’. This is the act of ’satisfaction’ of ‘penance’ of ‘conformity to Christ.’

And so, we come to the conclusion and purpose of Fr. Kimel’s comments: Purgatory is a post-mortem continuation of this ancient and truly apostolic belief.

14 Responses to “‘Satisfaction’ and ‘Punishment’”

  1. Ed Reiss Says:

    Rusty,

    I think I may have either been unclear, or you missed my point. Fr. Kimel stated that temporal punishment is not inflicted, it is merely the effects of our sins. The Council of Trent says otherwise. This “development” tends to make a hash of what Trent specifically says–that these punishments are indeed inflicted by an agent, perhaps the priest, perhaps the penitent, perhaps God himself. It is, in my estimation, a good example of “development” changing something and acting like nothing has changed.

    Another issue I raised is that Trent 14 8 more or less states that until satisfaction is made, our sins are not forgiven, hence God does not forgive sins without forgiving the punishment too, and they are not talking about eternal punishment because this section is about pennance, satisfaction etc. All this seems rather contrary to Fr. Kimel’s claim, and the claim of the CCC, that temporal punishment (or the inflicting of punishment by priest, self or God) is just the effects of sin. Since the punishments are “inflicted” by outside agents, they are by definition external punishments.

    The caveat is that this “development” has not been made an official teaching of the Majesterium.

  2. Pontificator Says:

    In response to Mr Reiss, I would suggest that he needs to read the decrees and canons of the Council of Trent in light of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not against it. The Catechism is quite clear. Regarding both the eternal and temporal punishment of sin, the CCC states:

    “These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin” (1472).

  3. Ed Reiss Says:

    Hello Fr. Kimel!

    You wrote “I would suggest that he needs to read the decrees and canons of the Council of Trent in light of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not against it. The Catechism is quite clear.”

    I think Trent would have more authority than the CCC, being an approved council. If that is so, then Trent takes precedence, does it not? (Perhaps the CCC has more dogmatic authority than I am giving it, your call).

    It is my opinion that the CCC and Trent do indeed teach different things here is why.

    Fr. Hardon’s pocket Catholic dictionary defines “vengeance” as:

    “The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing…”

    I assume that is what the CCC means by “vengeance”, not something more like “petulance”.

    So if, as Trent says, we “make satisfaction to God the Father not only by punishments voluntarily undertaken by ourselves to atone for sins, or by those imposed by the judgment of the priest according to the measure of our offense, but also, and this is the greatest proof of love, by the temporal afflictions imposed by God and borne patiently by us…”, then God inflicts punishment, that sounds a lot like inflicted punishments due to God’s vengeance against someone who has done wrong. If that is true, then I think Trent and the CCC do indeed conflict.

  4. Pontificator Says:

    Ed, may I respectfully suggest that you are reading the dogmas of Trent like a Protestant–i.e., you are reading them at a literalistic level, apart from the living tradition and faith of the Church. Dogmas do not stand alone. They do not state everything that needs to be stated, nor are they immune to refinement and improvement (see Avery Dulles, The Survival of Dogma. The fact that your interpretation of Trent contradicts the authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church, as embodied in her catechism, should at least suggest to you that you are not interpreting Trent in a Catholic manner.

  5. tizzidale Says:

    The problem for Ed, of course, is that Trent nowhere uses the term “vengeance” in relation to its description of ‘temporal punishments’. The one place where it comes close: “But let them have in view, that the satisfaction, which they impose, be not only for the preservation of a new life and a medicine of infirmity, but also for the avenging and punishing of past sins,” is immediately followed by: “For the ancient Fathers likewise both believe and teach, that the keys of the priests were given, not to loose only, but also to bind. But not therefore did they imagine that the sacrament of Penance is a tribunal of wrath or of punishments.”

    Trent makes it clear that the sacrament of penance is for the healing of the consequences of sinning after baptism. In the Roman Catechism it is stated: But should they at any time prove so unfortunate as to fall, then, looking at the infinite goodness of God, who like the good shepherd binds up and heals the wounds of His sheep, they should not postpone recourse to the most saving remedy of Penance.

    Again, the Roman Catechism sounds remarkably like the modern catechism:

    St. Bernard also observes that sin produces two effects: a stain on the soul and a wound; that the stain is removed through the mercy of God, while to heal the wound inflicted by sin the remedy of penance is most necessary. When a wound has been healed, some scars remain which demand attention; likewise, with regard to the soul, after the guilt of sin is forgiven, some of its effects remain, from which the soul requires to be cleansed.

    St. Chrysostom fully confirms the same doctrine when he says: It is not enough that the arrow has been extracted from the body; the wound which it inflicted must also be healed. So with regard to the soul, it is not enough that sin has been pardoned; the wound which it has left must also be healed by penance.

    St. Augustine also frequently teaches that penance exhibits at once the mercy and the justice of God, His mercy by which He pardons sin and the eternal punishment due to sin; His justice by which He exacts temporary punishment from the sinner.

    I agree with Fr. Kimel here. We can’t read the current teachings of the Church as if they’re divorced from past teachings. They are not. Neither are they are re-imagining of them. It should charitably be looked at as what the Church herself understands it to be – a refinement of our understanding of Truth.

  6. Ed Reiss Says:

    Rusty,

    Trent does say God inflicts punishment (or affliction), that is vengeance, according to Fr. Hardon–so now you are the Protestant. :0)

    Can punishment be beneficial? Of course it can. Can God use punishment to make us grow in faith? Yes. But that punishment can have good effects does not make it non-punishment.

    Fr. Kimel,

    I understand where you are coming from, really I do. Trent is not the final word, because the CCC refines what Trent says. That is how doctrine develops in the RCC. I just think that the words seem contradictory. Apparently you can reconcile them. I cannot. That is one reason I am a Protestant.

  7. Chris Molter Says:

    Ed,

    I’ve seen non-Christians use the same argument against the apparent contradictions in scripture. What do we say to them that won’t sound like the same kind of “nuancing” that you accuse the Catholic Church of?

    and where can I get grammar lessons? sheesh.

  8. tizzidale Says:

    Trent does say God inflicts punishment (or affliction), that is vengeance, according to Fr. Hardon

    Of course, you’re putting your conclusion in Fr. Hardon’s mouth . . . nowhere in the definition of vengeance did he mention Trent. Nevertheless, it is, as it has always been, a discussion of terminology and what is meant by it. See the article I referenced by Mark Shea to understand what I mean.

  9. Ed Reiss Says:

    Chris,

    “What do we say to them that won’t sound like the same kind of “nuancing” that you accuse the Catholic Church of?”

    A good question. The answer is, I am a Protestant. For various ecclesiological and historical reasons, I believe that councils and papal decrees have flatly contradicted each other–please see anti-popes, conciliar movement, Great Schism etc.

    Regarding what atheists say about the scriptures–I don’t think the Holy Scriptures are meant to be read as a strict history text, but as a proclamation through the writers by God of Jesus Christ. So, I start with Christ and then believe the Bible, I don’t start with the Bible and then extrapolate what it tells me of God. Or, the Bible is true because Christ is true, and Christ has known me, and I him, from my Baptism.

    Rusty, I didn’t put anything in anyone’s mouth. Fr. Kimel used cited “vengeance” in the CCC. I looked the word up in what I believe is a reliable source for RC information. That source says that vengeance is punishment inflicted for sins. That makes the punishment inflicted on the penitent vengeance. Maybe you disagree, but it is certainly not an irrational placing of things on others’ mouths.

  10. tizzidale Says:

    I think the problem I had was with your sentence structure. It seemed that you were saying Fr. Hardon said the equivalent of “Trent does say God inflicts vengeance.” Of course he didn’t say that . . . . The problem of course was my reading of your sentence :)

  11. Michael Liccione Says:

    Mr Reiss:

    Your brand of Protestantism is quite problematic even by Protestant standards. You say: “I start with Christ and then believe the Bible, I don’t start with the Bible and then extrapolate what it tells me of God. Or, the Bible is true because Christ is true, and Christ has known me, and I him, from my Baptism.” Well, if your knowledge of and faith in Christ is thus epistemically prior to the Bible, then sola scriptura is out for you, and you claim knowledge of the deposit of faith through a Tradition that is epistemically, and presumably temporally, prior to the Bible. But by whose account of Tradition? Whatever the answer, what authority can they claim? Do you claim to know which ecclesial authority, if any, speaks with the infallible authority of Christ? If so, why? And if none does, at least according to you, then how can you distinguish your faith from mere personal opinion? Even apart from any specifically Catholic-Protestant issue, these are very serious questions for you.

    Your reasons for rejecting Catholicism are hardly more persuasive. They consist essentially in a series of claims that the Magisterium has contradicted itself. One such alleged case is the Western Schism of the late 14th and early 15th centuries. But you offer no evidence that the Catholic Church, in the course of that schism and its resolution, ever used her full authority to propound a doctrine incompatible with some other doctrine propounded with her full authority. There may indeed be contradictions between certain statements as you understand them; but you supply no reason to believe that you have interpreted such statements as the Magisterium did and does. All you seem to do is imply that the Magisterium’s interpretations are self-serving pretenses, which merely begs the question.

    As to the nest of issues specific to this post and thread: where is the contradiction between saying, on the one hand, that God inflicts “temporal punishment” for sin, and saying on the other hand that such punishment is a natural consequence of sin? Why can’t it be both? Your thinking on this topic, like much of your thought, is vitiated by false dichotomies.

    Best,
    Mike

  12. Ed Reiss Says:

    Dr. Liccone,

    My reasons for rejecting RCism are persuasive to me, because if there is a contradiction, then the cannot be the Majesterium Majesterium by its own lights. I believe there is more than one contradiction, and that most,if not all, of the attempts at harmonization are not totally kosher. Obviously, as a RC Christian, you cannot believe this, because if the Majesterium did contradict itself with its full authority, you could not be a RC Christian. This doe snot make you dishonest, or self serving BTW. So, for you, the likelihood of any harmonization being true is greater than it being false, so long as it is with Majesterial authority. I actually don’t have a problem with that.

    And there is a lot of wiggle room in “the Catholic Church, in the course of that schism and its resolution, ever used her full authority to propound a doctrine incompatible with some other doctrine propounded with her full authority”.

    What is “her full authority”? How do we know when the Church’s “full authority” is used? Is there an infallible list of infallible pronouncements? If everything was clear, why does it need to be “clarified” or “developed”? My point here is only to point out that it is not always 100% clear exactly where the Tradition’s dogmatic boundaries are, because it is not always clear when the Church uses “her full authority”.

    Also, does the CCC have the “full authority” of the Church, or not? I honestly want to know.

    You asked “where is the contradiction between saying, on the one hand, that God inflicts “temporal punishment” for sin, and saying on the other hand that such punishment is a natural consequence of sin? Why can’t it be both? Your thinking on this topic, like much of your thought, is vitiated by false dichotomies.”

    There is not a contradiction between those statements, but I was not arguing there is anyway. Here is my problem: Fr. Kimel said regarding the CCC “The language of punishment is retained, yet note the insistence that this “must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.” It is sin that brings with it, by divine ordination, its own punishment.”

    So, it “must not be conceived as a kind of vengeance”, must not. That sounds like a strong statement to me, like, if I do, I am wrong. So, if temporal punishment is conceived as vengeance in a dogmatic document, we likely have a contradiction. So, what is vengeance? I thought maybe vengeance had some other connotation in RC theology besides retribution for wrong, so I consulted what I believe to be a reliable source on RC theology. That source says vengeance is punishment for sins, and only God can rightly do this. So “punishment” is veangeance, when done by God to punish sin.

    I believe Trent does conceive temporal punishment as vengeance because of how it is written. Maybe the Latin is different, I don’t know. But what I do know is that this contradiction I believe I found is not something which can be simply waved away by airy claims that the Church does not contradict herself. A lot would be settled if someone could tell me if the latest CCC has dogmatic authority, like Trent or papal decrees with the “full authority of the pope as a doctor of the Church”. If not, there is not a contradiction in RC theology, but between a dogmatic statement and a teaching tool. If it is, then there is some explaining to do.

    Here is the contradiction:

    Temporal punishment is not “vengeance inflicted by God from without” (my summary), according to The CCC; yet, Trent says that punishment is inflicted from God without. The CCC says in effect “not from without”, and Trent says “from without”. As you can see, there is room for “both and” in the abstract, but not, in my opinion, in the way Fr. Kimel, through the CCC states things.

  13. Michael Liccione Says:

    Mr Reiss:

    As for the vengeance issue, it still seems to me that you’re laboring under a false dichotomy. I don’t have the Latin text of Trent ready to hand; but that doesn’t much matter, since the alleged logical problem can be resolved as well as stated in English.

    The question is what it means to say that God inflicts temporal punishment “from without.” Without clarification, such a statement is ambiguous because the quoted phrase itself is. Interpreted in a strong sense, the statement means that said punishment is retribution which does not ordinarily arise from either the sin itself or the general order of things, but rather is imposed by special divine decree. That would be the sort of “vengeance” visited on the sinner instead of, and perhaps for want of, any “natural” punishment, i.e. the kind of punishment naturally consequent on the sin itself. Interpreted more weakly, however, the statement that God punishes “from without” means only that God wills that the sinner suffer punishment willy-nilly. That too can be called “vengeance,” since God wills such suffering, even when it is possible that the sinner be spared it. But here, there is no logical implication that such suffering is caused by special divine decree when it would otherwise not be so caused. The CCC indicates that the reason for such a thing is to help repair the damage wrought by sin. That is not merely retributive; it is also medicinal. But it typically involves suffering, which nobody likes.

    When the CCC says what it does about temporal punishment, it certainly is rejecting the strong sense of the statement in question. But what the CCC affirms is perfectly compatible with affirming the statement in the weaker sense. So if you’re going to interpret the CCC as contradicting Trent, you have to make a case that Trent defined doctrine in such a way that the statement in the stronger sense follows. You have not made that case. Evidently Cardinals Schönborn and Ratzinger, the two ecclesiastics most responsible for the CCC, didn’t see much basis for making it. And they know both the texts and the history better than either of us.

    On the broadest questions you raise about magisterial authority, I suggest you have a look at two articles of mine: “The Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium” and “Development and Negation.” Just go to my site by clicking on my username, and click on the corresponding links under “Articles of Mine.” Armed with a general account of levels of authority in Catholic teaching, you will be equipped to understand why the CCC has authority only as an official summary of Catholic teaching. Hint: it is an exercise of the “ordinary and universal” magisterium, as distinct from the “extraordinary” magisterium, of the Church. But as such, its interpretations of “extraordinary” teaching bind Catholics in conscience.

    I suspect that, having so educated yourself, you would do well to ponder the questions I raised in the first paragraph of my previous comment. I say so because you haven’t reacted to those questions yet, and you need to.

    Best,
    Mike

  14. Ed Reiss Says:

    Dr. Liccone,

    First, Merry Christmas!

    Second, in your reply, you wrote “Interpreted in a strong sense, the statement means that said punishment is retribution which does not ordinarily arise from either the sin itself or the general order of things, but rather is imposed by special divine decree.”

    I think Trent, as well as the Scriptures, clearly means the first type of vengeance, and here is why.

    The CCC says that we must not construe this punishment as vengeance. That means that vengeance is excluded by the CCC, which I cite here:

    1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

    Interestingly, this passage says the eternal punishment is not vengeance either!

    If what the CCC says is true, God is the only one NOT actively inflicting punishments–we do it ourselves, and the priest can do so as well (Trent Session 14 9). That seems incongruent on its face. Why would God be the only one to simply allow the effects of sin to affect a subject?

    The problem with this is, that Trent certainly sees these punishments as inflicted by God. I have already noted Session 14 8 and 9, but in canon XIII we read:

    If any one saith, that satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by Him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntarily undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, almsdeeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life; let him be anathema.

    You will no doubt notice that the punishments are inflicted by Christ. Now, maybe there is a way to use “inflicted” as meaning “allow the consequences of an act to affect a subject”, but I don’t think “inflicted” will do that work for you. We have other words to say that, like “allow” etc. The concept of allowing the consequences of sin affect a subject is not very difficult, so I fail to see why we should read the words in the weaker sense.

    But that is not all. I was looking around the Internet to see what RCs say temporal punishment is, and I kept seeing the following passage used as an example:

    2 Sam 12:7-14

    7Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. 8And I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. 9 Why have you despised the word of the LORD, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.’” 13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die.” 15Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick.

    Notice that the Lord inflicted the child after David’s eternal punishment was lifted–a classic example of temporal punishment. Not only that, unless an illegitimate child simply dying is “naturally consequent on the sin itself”, as you said, the natural reading pf the passage, and logic, impel us to the conclusion that God inflicted the child.

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